so we make something else. we help make life a little easier, more convenient, more rewarding, more entertaining. year after year. it's the reason why we don't have customers. we have members. american express. welcome in. good morning from new york. i'm chris hayes. egyptian president morsi is heading to new york to head the u.n. meeting. it's taking place in june. libyan authorities announced late last night any armed groups not authorized by the state would be broken up.

more on libya in a moment. right now, joining me today, we have the author of allah, liberty and love and director of the moral courage project, a great name for a center of study. >> you are smirking. >> no, i think it's great to say i just run a moral courage project. what do you do. >> thams frank, "t. the origins, of islam and add junt fellow on the foreign relations. it's great to have you all here. >> thank you. >> on friday, we saw a remarkable thing in libya. they turned them over to the government. at least 11 people were killed in the clashes. one of the militia groups the

protesters drove from the base is blamed for the attack on benghazi that killed chris stevens and three other americans. the attack on the four americans was reported as part of a spontaneous mob reaction to a 14 minute anti-muslim trailer in youtu youtube. itis becoming increasingly clear the attack was premeditated, not an outburst of muslim rage. >> what happened in benghazi was a terrorist attack and we will not rest until we have tracked down and brought to justice the terrorists who murdered four americans. >> meanwhile, in pakistan, the anger in the streets seems to be focused on the muslim video. 19 people died in violence on

friday. the prime minister has asked the united nations to come up with a resolution banning hate speech across the word. >> when some people use this freedom of expression, this cannot be protected in such a way. not sure about that. the comment came the day the french published a cartoon lampooned the profit muhammad. >> i am guilty of this, i am not an expert in the muslim world at all. everything gets sort of bundled together. it's like, they, over there are freaking out is the story. then it's like actually, 10,000 people were in yemen to protest immunity for the dick toreial propped up u.s. dictator that

has been pushed out and people in egypt have other complaints and people in tunisia have other complaints. let's talk about libya first. to me, what's amaze sg the story we have heard about libya was an upsetting and terrifying one. it was, there's some video on youtube that you have never heard of. by you, i mean american news consumer that someone found in libya and now people freak out and four americans are dead. murdered. that is not the story at all. right? we are not learning that that isn't what happened at all. how should that change how we understand the story of what is happening right now? >> surprise. the elites got it wrong again. >> exactly. >> the media screwed up. what's going on here? >> the media screwed up and the government -- i mean the obama administration and what they

said distorted the story. >> that's true. this is the thing most concerning. president obama kept spinning it as though this was a spontaneous protest. frankly, i think that's a better -- it gives them more of an umbrella of protection to say this was spontaneous. >> political protection. >> yes, than to admit it was clad inspired assassination of an american ambassador. that's difficult to talk about. then questions come up, why didn't we know about it? why didn't we stop it? >> one of the most underappreciated adds speblgts of the story and you alluded to it is how moderate muslims have really stepped up and made their voices heard in this entire scenario. i mean, i won't speak for the other three on the panel by any stretch, but for me, this is the first time that i have seen images of moderates holding up

signs, we love you, america. this is not who we are. please forgive us. god bless chris stevens and for anybody to say because what's happened is all doom and gloom, i'm thinking, oh my god, it's actually the opposite. you have been calling for moderates to come out of the wood work, they are they are. now give them credit. now, give them credit. >> yeah. there's another aspect that was disturbing. the way the media here in the u.s. used that. you have a cover from "newsweek" saying muslim outrage, they are all the same. there's an industry here of groups that used this for political reasons. i'm sorry to say that. those people who say don't vote for obama because secretly he's a muslim. we are in war with islam. it confuses and undermines the work of these mothers that she

talks about. in the end of the day, there's a war within the arab world between moderates and extremists. what's happening there, the bottle that's -- even the dial that is taking place shows how the government in tunisia, egypt and libya exploit these videos. >> the fascinating thing here is the elections in libya were, the islamist parties did poorly. the muslim brotherhood didn't show. >> it's why they are progressing. >> it's not the case in egypt where the muslim brotherhood did win and morsi, who is coming to new york and giving an interview. he's a fascinating figure. i want to contrast the last it ration we had of this issue we had which is the famous danish cartoons in 2006.

people freaked out. >> yeah. >> i mean people freaked out and people died as a result. as a journalist, you feel on the horns. what is different now between 2006 danish cartoons because i think the american media has the script in mind and that's the story they are writing. what is happening is quite different. >> two things. one is, opposed to the protest of the danish cartoons, this isn't a top town thing. in 2006, you had mubarak and gadhafi who were actually promoating the protests and using them in a way to stoke anti-american sentiment at the height of the iraqi war, 2006, at the height of the war on terror that was rightly seen across the region as a war against islam and deeply anti-american time. in 2012, this is very much a ground up thing.

i mean these are just spontaneous protests. people who are, in some ways, offended by the film, but also who are using the film as a pretext for their own political agendas. we have something now we didn't have back then, which is this sort of other voices who have an opportunity to hear themselves in a way under a dictator they would not. this goes against the narrative of how this is an indication of obama's failure in the middle east. in 2006, the middle of the muslim world joined these protests because it was easy to see them as part of the larger issue. >> war against islam, anti-bush, et cetera. the middle ignored it. they fought against it, indeed. >> sorry, when they start saying this is actually hurting us much more than the cartoon itself than the clip itself.

you see online for the first time in history, a debate where the muslims are not the central of this debate. they are not the heroes or promotors. they are the people seen as, you know what, you are disturbing your image. >> you are saying in -- >> within the arab media. for the first time, the leaders, the biggest, they are confused and don't know what to say and what to do. they would love for the first time i have seen them saying i would like to understand how americans think and how they think not only of our culture and freedom of speech, millions of people, how it affects the way we see them. >> hard to recall in 2005, at the height of the cartoon crisis, social media wasn't as developed as it is now. there haven't been -- there weren't as many opportunities

back then for moderates to get their voices heard, to push back, as you say. today, that's a very, very different scenario. it's exactly what we are saying. >> in 2006, we wanted to hear this. the whole debate was, you know what? this is our agenda. this is what we want to do and how we see the arab world, that's it. >> i want to talk about the public's fears. we're going take a break.

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so, there's two arguments that people make. there's a philosophical argument about liberal values, the famous line about the answer to a bad speech is more speech.

that's this fundamental belief. part of what i'm hearing from you is that is, at some level, playing out a bit now. the restrictive public atmosphere basically state media is the only alternative is, now has been replaced by a broader and more spacious public atmosphere with the internal debates happening. the other argument we have heard in the wake of the elections in egypt particularly, which created the dilemma for american foreign policy. we no longer have the client dictator. we now have a democratic nation but they have chosen to elect muslim brotherhood representative. will the muslim brotherhood empower, act in a way that is more responsible than they would out of power? we have seen interesting evidence. how has it comported itself with

respect to this in the wake of the demonstration? >> look at morsi. when the film first came out, morsi seemed to side with the people on the right who are giving him a lot of pressure saying hees not representing egypt. he's on a knife edge between the people who helped elect him and the government, the united states who supports him. as soon as obama put a little bit of pressure on him, he realized that he's no longer a member of the muslim brotherhood. he's responsible for an entire nation. that 180 where he immediately began condemning the violence, talking ability, he condemned the movie as well. >> he's not going to endorse the movie. >> well, condemned the violence and call for peace and paeacefu protest. it's what we want to see. >> you are right to a certain

extent. i was visiting in egypt. it's fascinating to see that. i think it's like obama in the beginning. i don't want to compare. he's not fully the president of egypt. he's still understanding whether he's the muslim leader or because that's why he was hesitant in talking in the beginning. he didn't step in. the interesting thing, if mubarak was in place, he would have rest and brutally suppressed the mobs. used them in the beginning and showed his power to the u.s. what he did, he opened up a little saying this is freedom of speech. >> right. >> we'll use that. at the same time, when it became violent, the police, he didn't give straight order. look, the rule of law, the principle of any democracy. accountability, these are non-gauchable. he did not step into that immediately. that shows he is still figuring

it out whether he's really representing all egypt or not. the only positive things, i'm sorry to add this, he immediately said don't attack christians. he knew. >> right. do you think ultimately because egypt is the second largest recipient of u.s. foreign aid, at the end of the day or in the middle of the day, morsi is going to need to convey all the right signals to the u.s. government? do you think that factor matters? >> military. he wants to dismiss the militaries. what he did this summer was a clear sign. look, i'm the civil government. i'm in charge. i'm running the show. you talk to me. i use the money the way i want. i think it's appropriate. when he said lately in a declaration said america needs to partner with us, they don't control us through their power. they don't buy the consensus, i

think it was a smart call on that. >> yep. >> his interview in the new york times is fascinating. he's a fascinating figure. when we saw, watching the arab spring from across many miles here in the u.s., there's an incredible feeling of hope and the worry about what is unleashed. to watch this government confronted with this issue. they called for protests of the film. then withdrew that after president obama very pointedly referred to them not quite as an ally. the place now where it seems this is the most worrisome is now in pakistan. in pakistan, we are seeing what looks more like the 2006 danish cartoon. 19 dead. buildings being burned. today, this is news we just got. the federal minister of railways

in pakistan, on saturday he announced 100,000 bounty on the american who produced the film. i announced this flblas fe mer. if somebody kills him, i will give them 100,000. >> running for office and elections are soon. >> that's right. >> the guy is campaigning. there's elections very soon in pakistan. take into consideration that. the guy is obviously using any kind of leverage. >> is he going to pay in kruegerands? >> until bin laden was killed by the troops, nobody actually pointed the finger at the pakistani government. they are saying it, obviously,

clearly. they receive so much money that goes to the army and the army controls it country. >> it's part of the broader coalition. >> yes. it's called the national party. 2% of the parliament but they are a nationalist party -- it's the province which we daily bomb with drones. his constituents are the people on a regular basis being killed by these bombs. this is just an opportunity for him to really use that intense anti-americanism in pakistan, which is real, as a way to -- >> let me say, first of all, the prime minister spokesperson

disassociated himself. >> the whole party. >> the whole party but it's still a horrific thing. you hope he gets fired for this. you can't call for bounty's on people's heads. this is outside the bounds of -- >> why hasn't there been a pakistani -- >> that's an interesting question. >> part of it is -- something in pakistan is so complex, not just economically, but there is really a sense that the politics of it, this is a military regime despite there's a veneer of democracy. the politics is almost futile in that country. you have these politicians who generation after generation are in the same position again. enormous amount of corruption. there's a sense among most pakistanis it doesn't matter. i wonder the degree to which pakistan remains a front line on the war on terror. we were talking about this 2006

atmosphere of intense polarization, of siege mentality when we had 150,000 troops in iraq. in pakistan, that's the case. we are talking drone attacks. being in the midst of battle on the front lines of civilization. >> invite every definition of the word, we are at war with pakistan. since 2006, we have killed almost 4,000 pakistanis. that's a war. it's just a war being fought like a video game. >> because pakistan is a place that is so intense and conflicted and complicated, the u.s. government -- this is where we get to the question of what do you do when a bizarre character, it looks like. the story is out of a satirical future. i can't believe it's real. this is the u.s. government running an ad in pakistan

featuring president obama and secretary of state, hillary clinton condemning the film. check it out. >> since our founding, the united states has been a nation that respects all faiths. we reject all efforts to denigrate the religious beliefs of others. there is no justification to this type of senseless violence. none. >> let me state very clearly and i hope it is obvious that the united states government had absolutely nothing to do with this video. we absolutely reject its content and message. america's commitment to religious tolerance goes back to the very beginning of our nation. >> i want to ask you guys if we should be running that ad after the break. why should saturday night have all the fun?

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conservative attack for running the ad and apologizing. it seems like you are walking a fine line. you want to make very clear to people, this is not some official american film. at the same time, that, you know, it's how you roll here. you can make films blasting whoever. >> i do it. >> that's when you are being obvious. >> insulting people's values, that's the name of the game. >> in the american context. >> you know, it turns out michele bachmann is right, the muslim brotherhood infiltrated the white house. the government does not control the levers of communication is unimaginable. of course we need to explain that. >> yes. >> it's a straight-up informational thing. fair enough. >> i have to admit, i have been troubled as a liberal as the

references by this administration in america to the fact that they found the vid video -- okay, so you did. the repeated acknowledgement of this makes me think that, you know, there isn't as strong a pride in what makes america america, freedom of speech and freedom of expression. >> let's go one step further than that. what makes america is like giving one another offense. you ever turn on the tv or go to a hollywood movie? let me take a step in an abstract direction. if you live in the midwest where they don't make movies and tv shows and your culture is beamed in from the two coasts of the world and it's massively insulting to you, it makes you angry. of course we don't, in this country, we don't riot. >> we have jobs and homes and

cars. >> we live in a culture that lives to give offense and take offense. what's the name of the biography of sarah palin? the persecution of sarah palin. it's about cataloging it. >> you are right. >> for a long time, i worked for a state television in egypt. i received telephone calls daily from officials and security apparatus of what to do and whatnot to do and who to interview and not. for them, 60% of them to our 25. what do you do to them? send messages to tell them america is different. you know, america is the one that supported their dictators. for them, we need to turn the page around. it's a good way. >> i think part of it that was weird, no one heard of it. there's this thing on youtube. now it's on the news.

warren churchhill was a professor no one heard of until fox news found him say something about 9/11. then we had this thing around this person no one knew about until the purveyors of grievance decided to author. thank you for being here. it was great to have you here. i want you to come back as this develops. what the mitt romney video says about the other people in the room. my story up next. cholesterol? and it tastes good? sure does! wow. it's the honey, it makes it taste so... well, would you look at the time... what's the rush? be happy. be healthy. what's the rush? if we want to improve our schools...

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to donors that mother jones posted last week is an artifact from culture and civilization that exists in the midst but we hardly get to see. the world of the high end donor. it's not pretty. the first thing that jumps out is a lot of questions are in aim. in fact, i almost feel sorry for mitt romney having to sit there and politely smile and nod and donors saying he needs to take the gloves off or show his face more on tv. folks in the room all but advised him to tour around the country reading passages of novels out loud at campaign rallies and hectoring them to bow before their superior. romney is not a total fool, he explains it's not the best way to win over the obama voters. almost none of the advice is very good. some of it is terrible.

that's not novel, of course. everyone who watches politics thinks they have the instigt to win elections. unlike other political junkies, this small group of folks get to impose their invaluable insights on the candidate. it's like the head coach of the giants having to spend most of the week between games meeting with the opinionuated fans who call into sports talks shows of how the giants should be blitzing or lining up two quarterbacks. this is the power of money, not just politics but society. the power to make people listen to your ideas no matter how dumb or uninformed. the other thing that stood out is how under siege the wealthy people feel. we are talking about a fund-raiser that kouss $50,000 a plate. that's the median household income in the u.s. the kind of wealth you need to

be in the room with romney is the kind of wealth to pony up as much money as americans make in a year to listen to him trash talk the people that make the amount you ponied up for dinner. what you hear is the same kind of whining that is the central theme for the republican convention. it made me think of this. >> you know what this is? it's the world's smallest violin playing just for the waitresses. >> instead of waitresses insert another word. since the roaring '20s, the dow is up, corporate funds are up. 8% unemployment means employers had a ready supply of labor keeping wage down.

the brothers have seen their own net worth nearly double from $32 billion to $62 billion under the socialist regime of barack hussein obama. despite he has a recovery that is good to them, wall street is incensed. in every way conceivable they have a universe. for instance, they ask mitt romney questions about foreign policy and romney complains voters don't complain about foreign policy and doesn't talk about it on the campaign trail. middle class voters are so concerned, it crowds out nearly everything else. extremely wealthy people are not a good representation of the voting population at large. they have different politics and priorities. this cashes out in a concrete way that affects our politics.

benjamin page has studying public opinion in general and the opinions of the wealthiest 1% and found that they diverge on most issues. on this statement, the federal government should spent who is necessary to ensure children have good public schools to go to. 87% of the public agrees while 35% of the wealthy do or our government should redistribute wealth by heavy taxes on the rich. 52% of the public agrees, 17% of the wealthy. favor cuts in spending on domestic programs like medicare, education and highways to cut federal deficits. 27% of the public agrees but 58% of the wealthy do. this is the biggest effect. it's not that lots of money can buy elections. it's not that campaign

contributions -- it's that every single person running for high office in america is forced to spend the vast majority of their time around one group of people and one group only, wealthy people. it's who they talk to and listen to all day long day in and day out every day for months, days, years and decades. if you don't believe me, imagine an alternate universe, where every minimum wage worker in america is given a golden ticket. imagine a law that required tv stations to only accept those goaden tickets as the sole form of payment for advertising time. a world where candidates had to scramble to collect as many as possible where candidates had to spend all the time they had to spend on the video with people working at drive-throughs and cleaning bathrooms. imagine the questions they would get, the stories and jokes they would here many hours a day, day in and day out.

imagine what our politics would look like as a result. maybe things would be different. maybe they would be more different than i would like to admit. one thing is for sure. mitt romney wouldn't get up in front of health care workers, people who are making minimum wage or more to change bedpans and clean up blood and vomit and they are moochers who won't take responsibility for their lives because they don't pay income taxes. i don't think even mitt romney is that politically sbept. i want to talk to thomas frank after this. [ male announcer ] research suggests the health of our cells plays a key role throughout our entire lives. ♪ one a day men's 50+ is a complete multi-vitamin designed for men's health concerns as we age. ♪

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political donors. with us is robert wolf, an outside adviser for president obama and host of "impact players on the reuters." miley, focuses on causes of racial inequality. tom frank, you are still here. thank you. >> haven't moved. >> thank you for not leaving. robert good to have you back. >> great to be here. >> i just got my class war on. i want to ask you how that resinates with you. how do you think -- am i right the way donor psychology warps the priority of the presidential campaign. don't tell me i'm right because i'm sitting here. >> i won't. i would like one of those willy wonka tickets. i have been to many of the president's fund-raisers since he was then senator. i see it differently than how he portrayed the fund raising

versus romney. when we are in the meetings with the president, it's more about questions about syria and iran and oil prices and the economy. it is not about who is paying taxes and who is not paying taxes. you have someone for an hour. you want to have depth and breath to the conversation. i was surprised by that's what donors are talking about. >> do you think that's because the kind of donor who is going to be at a barack obama closed door high dollar event is just not, you know, spending all their time reading news max and thinking about the shiftless class or is it -- why would there be a distinction? >> listen, i think there's wealthy donors on both sides. i'm part of the 1%. i have been on wall street 28 years. >> that's why i wanted you here. >> i'm more of a kennedy-type democrat. giving back to the country is

how we build the country. i don't see the 47% versus the other 47%. it doesn't bode that way with me. when i think people want to talk more about the middle east, the economy, infrastructure. >> let me puch on this a little bit. there's two theories we can think about here. the idea of polarization among the 1%, which is to say if you go to a mitt romney fund-raiser you get one thing and a barack obama fund-raiser you get liberal views. my theory is there's a lot of consensus among the 1% that is going to diffuse its way. >> let me talk brass tax here. president obama is not transactional. romney was a wall street guy, maybe they think he is transactional. very different type of feedback. >> there's social science here.

this is a good point. they say that if you are conservative your empathy, your ability to feel the pain of people different from yourself goes down as your political activity increases. for liberals, it's the other way around. the more politically active you are, the more emp thetic. as you talk about wealthy people, whether liberal or not, it matters. >> chris, i have a grand theory of contemporary american history. >> please. i don't know why you waited for this. >> life is one battle between cool billionaires and bogue billionair billionaires. between a liberal billionaire and nasty awful bill billionaires. who weighed on this is barack obama himself. if you read "audacity of hope" he described it. there's an important passage in

the book that describes the fund raising. he describes the kind of people he meets. what were they like? the people giving money to a man who was thought to be liberal. we feel differently now. the funders he went to. well, they were very good on cultural issues. very liberal on cultural war issues. they really believed in education. >> civil rights, also. >> of course. they hated unions. they love free trade. they believe in free markets. okay? they are extremely similar to the romney donors. maybe they don't read, "i am rand." in a later passage, two paragraphs down, he says the more time i spent with these people, the more i became like them. >> do you think it's true? >> he's not lying. >> listen, i think the obama fund raising isn't focused on the high rollers.

i think it's on the grass roots. if you look at the august numbers where he beat romney, was it a surprise in 75% was under $250 for the people giving $10 a click. >> or $3 now. >> much different progress they are making. much more grass roots. >> all the wonderful things they are going to get for that. >> we have a former treasury official, adviser mitt romney and romney fund-raiser who is going to be joining us in a second. t the best schools in the world... ...you see they all have something very interesting in common. they have teachers... ...with a deeper knowledge of their subjects. as a result, their students achieve at a higher level. let's develop more stars in education. let's invest in our teachers... ...so they can inspire our students.

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all right. i want to bring in a managing partner of the private ek quitty firm, treasury in the bush administration and a fund-raiser and economic adviser for mitt romney. he's joining us from new hampshire. great to have you. >> good morning. great to be with you.

>> you watched my class war disposition. do you think there is a divide between the perspective and politics and policy positions of the very, very small number of americans who can afford a $50,000 spot and the mass of public opinion and does it affect our politics? >> no, not really. i listened to you for the last ten or 15 minutes. give me two or three minutes to react to a couple things i heard. >> sure. >> this will get right to your question. first of all, i heard, you didn't say this, but one of your guests said that president obama is not transactional. i would disagree. i think president obama is the most transactional president i have seen since i became politically active since the early 1980s. let me give you one example. it goes to the donors, money and

politics. in this election and the last few elections, the biggest money, the single biggest chunk of dollars in an election came from the unions -- >> not true. >> -- if you want to talk about transactional -- >> not true. >> let me finish. >> okay, but it's not true. >> if you want to talk, there was $200 million or $300 million in the last election. if you want to talk about a transactional president, stacking t stacking after the election. flaunting the law. the bailout and the gm situation and lastly, think about the stimulus bill. in the stimulus bill, if you read it, a large chunk of the infrastructure spending was only sent to those who were in the

union. talk about, golly, talk about transactional. not to get sidetracked on the union. >> believe me, you would love to get off on that. unions don't give as much as the 1%. it's not true. because unions get so much money, the president has been a slave in his pursuit. the number one legislative priority from unions, which is the employee free trade act. the white house didn't lift a finger. the appointments happened six months after he had been pressured by the cio for one little thing. we had a huge number one union issue in the world, okay, in the united states with the chicago teacher's union strike in the president's hometown. all labor wanted was for him to weigh in and he did not say a

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♪ hello from new york. i'm chris hayes here with robert wolf, an outside adviser of president obama. tom frank, mila wiley. joining us this morning from new york is emil henry former secretary for the bush administration and economic adviser to mitt romney. emil, i don't want to litigate the campaign stuff. we can do it off air. the analysis from sunlight foundation through june 30th, 2012, all contributions

including industry employees and pacts, finance and real estate is the largest sector, 15%, labor -- >> you are right. you're right. you are right. what i said was historically and it's true, john mccain, i think he raised $237 million in that campaign. it wasn't good. and the unions were huge money in that. i don't want to side track on the union thing. i'm just reacting to the transactional comment. >> let me ask you about that. i keep reading articles, i have read 15 varieties of the article that wall street switched from barack obama to his opponent. >> very much so. >> he raised more money on wall street than his opponent last time around. it's established. now, it's not the case. wall street has shifted.

why is that? one of the things i have heard is that barack obama is terrible at doing this kind of transactional politics, hasn't done donor maintenance, they don't get invites to parties and cards. i keep hearing a story about how bad he is and how good mitt romney is at donor maintenance. is mitt romney good at donor maintenance? >> say that again. >> is mitt romney good at donor maintenance? >> he's fabulous. he's a wonderful people person. but, that's really besides -- that's really beside the point. i think, you know, bob said -- let's get a couple things clear. wall street is, all the numbers i have seen suggest that wall street now has shifted in a breathtaking way to governor romney. my read of why that's the case and i have been to so many meetings i can't describe them that my read is that the wall

street community sees that our economic situation is so dire and they see the gravity the situation. they see the parallels that exist of where we are today, where we are headed and where europe is. that community thinks this president is not addressing those with over $1 trillion in deficits every year. with 16 trillion dollar of debt. you have talked about this with regulations that are literally stifling growth, banks not lending. these are largely a function of this president's policies and the folks at the center of the financial world are seeing those very clearly. >> do you want to respond to that? >> do we have an hour? >> there's a book here. >> pity the billionaire. >> you have a book about this. this is exactly what i'm

describing. why anybody would want to go the route of spain, italy and greece, slam us into austeritau i don't get that. i just came back from germany. it's a disaster. >> i think he's confusing a bunch of things. a lot of wall street is for dodd/frank. we need new rules, they haven't been in existence. dodd/frank is a good thing. i liked it better when it was 85 pages. when we talk about the fund raising side, there's part of wall street for the president and part against. when it talks about business, for every person the republicans can mention trump, we can mention buffett. they can mention someone else, we can mention a ceo. i think business is doing better. i'm not sure what country we are

talking about. when we talk deficits, congressman ryan talks about being a fiscal hawk. he approved both wars, he approved t.a.r.p. at the end of the day, the republicans brought in the fiscal aspect. >> they always do that. that's the plan. >> i'm going to let you jump in. >> two quick points. one is, the picture of wall street is more complex than anyone is talking about. "the new york times" piece saying why they are not cozying up. george was named in that. he had been a huge donor in 2008 and asking for more radical financial reforms than barack obama's administration. so, you know, there's this, they didn't do what he asked and therefore he's not funding them. he made a calculated decision to fund grass roots efforts at what

he thought was a more strategic approach. some of this is much more complicated. the second point, i think it is true that how you handle donor relationships matters dramatically. every single person who fund raises knows that if you don't stay in touch with donors, they don't keep giving you money. it's not as prescription about your policies as it necessarily appears. >> that's just mannerism, i think. one of the things we are witnessing is the end of a certain kind of republican populism. yesterday was the 60th anniversary of nixon's checker speech. we have come a long way since the respectable republican cloth coat. now, you know, we are seeing the end of republican anti-elitism. >> wait, wait, wait. you have seen the end of one form of it. you are seeing a different form. the rallying cry in 2010 was out

with the ruling class. this is richard had an election day watch party called out with the ruling class. there's a best selling book called "the ruling class." it's very much an anti-elitist message. it's a different anti-e leithist. >> it's coming from the tea party and the message is something sarah palin pioneered. the idea we need to be taxing everybody in the country, including people with very little money is something michele bachmann has been pushing for. >> can i just talk about that tax situation? >> i want to ask emil, in the tape, i'm curious if you, two things that get said a lot. i wonder, do you worry about the makers/takers dynamic and people not paying enough at the bottom? i talk to people in wall street

besieged or attacked or persecuted by the current administration? >> well, let's see. i'm going to answer your question. in your opening statement, which i found really interesting and i listened very closely to you said one of the things you found interesting about that tape was the questions. i have to say, i would love to have a tape out at george clooney's mansion on the west coast. >> absolutely. no, no. let me be very clear here. donor questions is not a partisan issue. i have been in rooms with democratic donors asking equally dumb questions. >> thank you. i wanted to make it all fair and valid. >> that's not partisan. that i agree with. >> the second one -- i heard bob

say -- go ahead. >> do you worry about this makers takers issue? the 47% line that's gotten a lot of play. is it something that as someone who presumably, you know, pays income taxes, i'm assuming that you feel there's this problem that's developing in which people on the bottom half of the income distribution are not paying income taxes and it's going to be a problem for the country. >> here is the problem. governor romney said it. your network, i heard many, including i think you and rachel maddow and others saying how governor romney was doubling down on his -- what he was saying there. i tell you what, i will tripp l down on it this morning. here is the point. the point is, this election, i

believe and i have been involved in this stuff for a long time as all of you guys have, this election could not present a more stark contrast in governing pl philosophy and on one hand embodied on the remarks. you have a president who airs towards, in the very least, an entitlement society, a society of hand downs, a society of 46 million people on food stamps. i think that compared to less than ten over a decade ago. that is just -- that is a bad -- that is a bad symptom for a society when there is more of that versus less of that. governor romney, what he -- i'm going finish now. what he presents is he presents, he doesn't present

redistribution. you heard the president on tape on this one. i know you had a hard time authenticating it, but we heard it on tape, he advocates for redistribution as opposed to governor romney, which says, as to conservative economists and people like myself say we have a pie. let's make the pie bigger via growth. the whole economic plan is driven toward growth as opposed to redistribution. >> hang on the line. we are going to take a quick break. there's thoughts on the table that want to respond to you. stay with us.

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i want to respond real quick on food stamps. you are right the amount of people on stamps has increased quite a bit.

it was 32 million when the president took over. it's now around 46 million to 47 million. the last big expansion eligibility, the two things that increased are the recession. people have gotten poorer because of the recession and the eligibility ha happened in 2002 signed by president bush. it was voted for by none other than paul ryan. the last expansion of eligibility of food stamps happened under a republican president who voted for paul ryan. the other thing i want to ask about is the redistribution thing. p president believes in it, mitt romney doesn't. if that's the case, why not advocate a flat tax? if romney doesn't believe in redistribution, he's got the wrong tax plan. real belief would be at the very least a flat tax. i don't understand why he doesn't have the courage to go

out there and advocate for a nonredistributive tax plan. >> actually, if you look at his tax plan closely, it's about as close to a flat tax plan as has existed since the reagan years. what he's done is he -- and what he was advocating for is a highly simplified plan. the tax code, by the way, is 70,000 pages. 70,000. you know why it's 70,000 pages? for the last multiple decades, politicians have sold for donations have sold exemptions to the code. let's simplify it. we can come to that one. let's simplify it. let's lower marginal rates and get rid of, not all, but most of the agregregious exemptions and taxes on the middle class will

go down. and no -- i have heard him say this 100 times and i know this for a fact, he says taxes on rich folks are not going to go down because of the elimination of exemptions. the more people hear about this -- >> that's intention with the nonredistributed thing. taxes on wealthy people have to go down. if he doesn't believe in that, he has to reduce the burden of wealthy people. we have a barely, but progressive income tax. if he doesn't believe in redistribution, he has to cut it for the wealthy. it's not the case he is flattening the tax code and not lowering them for rich people. >> your point -- if your making -- chris, i always like talking with you. you think outside the box. if your point is that a

progressive tax code, which is what the united states of america has and it's the right thing, and it's about fairness and fairness of opportunity, your point is there's a technical element of redistribution by virtue of hiring -- >> not just technical -- that's redistribution. you are paying for it! >> let's be real about it. let's be real about this. when president obama talks about redistribution, chris, you know this is true, when he talks about redistribution, he is talking about a massive difference from the romney plan, which is about simpler, lower marginal rates, getting rid of exemptions and lowering the corporate tax rate to attract business in america. >> just two points. one, it wasn't just you and rachel maddow that had a problem with governor romney's comments.

i read peggy noonan and david brooks. 67% of them pay payroll. 37% are retirees and elderly. the other 10% are student, military, disabled and yes, those in poverty. on a percentage basis, my guess is a lot of that 47% pays higher than the 14% that governor romney announced. >> he said this is a choice election. it certainly is, okay. what you are seeing -- do you remember this textbook they used to assign in college called who built america? it was a history of labor. we are turning that understanding completely upside down. who built america, the people in lower manhattan, finance capital. we are moochers and looters. >> we got mitt romney's tax

returns and learned he paid 14 -- roughly 14.-something percent. the lowest pays 17.1. this notion of mooching is distorted in terms of the facts. i want to thank you. >> can i jump in on that one. >> sorry. we are up against a break. thank you for coming. i'll have you back. economic adviser to mitt romney. thank you all for joining us this morning. >> thank you. from act up to occupy, how change does come to washington, when we come back. sven's home security gets the most rewards of any small business credit card! how does this thing work? oh, i like it! [ garth ] sven's small business earns 2% cash back on every purchase, every day! woo-hoo!!! so that's ten security gators, right? put them on my spark card! why settle for less? testing hot tar... great businesses deserve the most rewards!

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♪ >> on thursday, president obama made headlines during a forum for stating something that seems

true. changing washington can only happen from the outside. occupy wall street, the most vibrant -- is based on that simple truth. members of the media took the one year anniversary as an opportunity to taunt the movement frr failures. several hundred protesters were at the stock exchange in lower manhattan where 180 people were arrested. friday, a documentary opened in theaters. one that is almost certainly the most successful of the past 30 years. how to survive a plague. aids activists who forced government elites to pay attention to them through targeted civil disobedience. they were treated with contempt to radical to achieve real change. here is protesting outside the fda in october, 1998.

>> we are not asking the fda to release drugs without safety or ethi ethics. we are asking the fda to do it quicker. >> we don't know where they are taking us. this government has the resources to deal with aids and they won't do it unless we force them. >> there were a series of protests to change the health care system in not only the united states but around the world and save millions of lives in the process. david france, the writer,

director and producer of the documentary "how to survive a plague." you are featured in the film because before you were a political journalist, you were a member of act up. >> i was. >> david, can i start by saying, i think the film is a masterpiece and i want everyone who is watching right now to do whatever it takes to go see it. it's an incredible piece of work. i was completely overcome. emotionally, spiritually overcome by the film. it's a nice piece of work. >> thank you so much. >> now, i want to give you the tough questions. >> okay. >> talk to me about what act up was and why did it choose to be the kind of organization it was? you know, one of the things i think is interesting is we think of politics and the election we are having now. if you are a member of a despised minority and a subsection with a dreaded

disease, you can't really run candidates for city council. like, you are not going to have a majority way of getting things done. >> right. right. >> you have to choose another way. how did act up develop their philosophy of how they were going to change? >> i think the first thing we should remember is that an hiv diagnosis back then meant prognosis of 18 months. everything was run on this urgent campaign. there was no time to wait. by the sixth year of the epidemic when act up first formed, six years into this killer plague, there wasn't a single pill to take. the machinery of the national health services hadn't produced anything. people were dying left and right. what act up did when it came together as a spontaneous movement was to immediately just

begin to press or knock or hammer on all the doors where anyone which might have produced a response, a medical response, a pill, a treatment, any sort of treatment. they, knowing they had this broad campaign, they were fighting the media that was paying no attention. pharma that didn't think there was money in it. it was a battle on so many fronts, they diversified. they said you pick whatever struggle you want as long as the goal is our goal, which is drugs into bodies, treatment for people. >> these very, you know, there's mayor koch is -- george h.w. bush, the president. sometimes you get reaction shots and these folks, they are not the enemy when you think who is the enemy. scientists trying to solve

diseases. but they are showing up at their door. i want to talk about demands. it seemed to me and that gets into the occupy question, right? these actions seem to have specific demands. there's one action where they go to st. vincent where a security guard beat up a few gay and lesbian patients. we are going and we demand a meeting. we are going to occupy until we get it. someone comes out and gives them medicine. a speck demand. how crucial was that? >> it was absolutely essential. if you look at act up, it was the last of the great new social movements on the 20th century. it had member that is came from those who existed previously and brought their skill set to the table. they came in just because of aids and hiv. but, in terms of how change was created, we see activists organizing online, flash mob

style and faybook. they didn't do anything accidentally. the first step was identifying a need. the second step was research. the third step was contact with whoever you wanted change from. a list of demands. there was a request for meetings in advance to see if something could be resolved without a protest. the protest was a tool in a broad spectrum of actions that were taken and follow up after protests as well. there was always a conversation and opportunity that people were trying to give whoever they were targeting. >> right. so, we want x from you mayor koch, which is increased funding in aids research. we want a meeting. we are going show up. we have this demand. i want you guys to weigh in on this. one of the novel aspects of the structure was the lack of

demands, rejection of demand. i have to say, i found it difficult studying previous social movements. watching the film, i was reminded of how crucial it seemed. how you can have progress without demands after the break. rogaine? well, i'll admit it.

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nowhere. it will end up killing us. all right? >> see this mark on my forehead? it's going spread. it's going to kill me. you coming to my funeral because you are the man responsible. you are my murderer in your shirt and tie. >> really intense scene from a sit-in at the pharmaceutical company. the first thing they say is we are here to demand, a very specific demand. how do you respond when occupy made the decision to reject the demands? >> this is the 21st movement -- 21st century movement. in august of last year, we add discussions of how to address the injustice all together. occupy is a part of continuing social movements in the 21st century. the struggle that act up

launched hasn't ended. what we are trying to do right now is create space for many social struggles in existence right now in different groups that are better situated to make the demands. we stand in solidarity and develop analysis. the idea that a year in right now, we are coming up with this analysis and rolling it up for people. we should be mindful that, how do you deal with mofia capitalism. a time our government is incapable of dealing with the grip of global capital. >> i add to that. we are looking for transformational change, not transactional change. we use the tactics of act up and we try to learn from our elders and those who came before. we have affinity groups. this is a structure that worked well on monday. we have decentralized actions,

four zones, autonomous actions and groups. people had demands. they took actions i have been a part of. the sit in at general snyders office. you provided that for us by coincidence. we have demands in these affinity groups, people trying to shut down the pipeline. we don't speak with a single voice. >> this gets to the question, how do you deal with what you call mofia capitalism or the inequality. right? >> right. >> the answer -- i don't have the answer. the first step is breaking it into smaller problems. how am i going to program it. how do i draw a block on the screen. breaking up into smaller problems is what made act up very effective, right? >> absolutely. there were 40 different committees. there were act ups all over the country. there was an act now network.

it was an international movement. each of those committees dealt with a very broad array of issues and gave rise to other organizations which i think still exist and it's important people know housing works. a needle exchange project began as a civil disobedience action, do needle exchange when it was legal. a law in new york state changed around that. they continue to do work on aids treatment policy and the aids vaccine coalition that continues to do work on vaccine policy. >> that's the long run, really. ultimately, ten years and 15 years of aids activism produced. in the first year, act up wasn't all that remarkably dissimilar to what occupy accomplished over its first year. it began as a, you know, a --

inopposition to the government. just right out on the street. protesting, being arrested. the tactics were really similar. it took a long time, as you see in the movie, which covers nine years. it took a long time for the development of a really refined strategy for the very specific goals that they have. >> that's interesting. >> that strategy began to include the development of self-education, the scientific sphere. people were so well versed. they were able to not only speak the language of the people they were asking for, they were asking change from, but were able to join them and develop the changes together. housing works and the other aspects that work in response to the broadening idea for the need for change. >> that's what we are seeing out of occupy.

you see people self-educating. we are releasing the debt resistors operation manual. it's a very well researched put out guide to bet, bankruptcy to how people are affected by it. >> the power of expertise and able to chip away is a common theme. we'll take a quick break.

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...with new projects every week and big savings every day. so you can do what needs to be done. today. more saving. more doing. that's the power of the home depot. show the yard who's boss with this echo blower for just $159. talking about act up, occupy wall street and how it changes. >> one of the lessons from act up was direct action. that's what we did. occupying a public space where there aren't spaces of public decent. you get people of empowerment. it's important to free up imagination to think there is another world that's possible. there's another way of organizing economic life that isn't about remember, democrat

and independent where people get lost in the shuffle, right? the other thing i want to say is we do do our research, power of the power list. jeremy writing a piece, act up, 1989, die in. right? >> right. >> at the stock exchange a week ago, that's where we were. we are studying civil rights, but the challenges are different. i think chain of equivalences. multiple social movements where you have a movement that continues past putting people in power. bringing in about change because this is long term. the other thing i want to mention about the occupation last year september 17th was started as a direct action became a life. the epicenter of a greed culture, a society of mutual aid. >> you see that. your film was the best cinematic portrayal since eyes on the pride. it's the classic miniseries.

a culture emerges around the process of creation around a community. >> absolutely. i think, you know, the essential lesson for me of act up is contrary to a big concept we are talking about today. there's the whole it gets better project. if you reach out and talk to someone across an internet space, you can improve their lives. you can wait and it will improve. it's not how the world works. nothing gets better unless you make it and that it's very difficult work. i think a lot of the people in the group, they spent devoted years to it. it is very difficult work to be at the sharp edge of the sphere, in a way. it's how social change happens in this country. in a free society where there is capacity for people to hold their government accountable. people take the initiative to do that. politicians basically act to ratify the social changes once

they reach the tipping point. >> i was going to say because it's such hard work you see the communities form to take care of one another. that's one of my favorite things about occupy. this past monday, on tuesday, we had people in the courts, at the jails. people come out. you can't talk in the courtroom, you go outside. if you were in the courtroom, you hear a roar. there are so many people waiting for people to get out of jail, do you need a cigarette? do you need food? it's cultural care. >> the film was dramatic and condenses ten years into 1:45. what can get lost in that is that, you know, social movement changes tv. in parting the waters, which is the amazing first about the civil rights movement. there are 60 page accounts of meetings. there's a quote about this. the problem with socialism is it takes up too many meetings. what you should know for the week ahead coming up next.

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just a moment, what we should know for the week ahead. first, an update on the story we have been following closely on "up." a key player on the federal reserve, one of the board's board's biggest inflakes hawks worried about inflation than unemployment. sees the virtue of using monetary stimulus to fight unemployment. in a speech on thursday -- got that right. president of the federal reserve bank of minnesota laid out what he called a contingency plan for liftoff for the economy. he said the fed should keep the fed fund's rate extraordinarily low until the unemployment rate falls below 5.5%. finally, it sounds like the fed's biggest skeptics are coming around to the idea the board should get more aggressive

on the jobs crisis. that is very welcome news. on a personal update, if you're in the new york city area, i'll be appearing at 1:00 p.m. today at the brooklyn book festival to talk about my new book. go to brooklyn book festival.org for more information. what should you know? the democratic senate has -- the stop the war on coal act. you should know that according to democrats on the energy and commerce committee the stop the war on coal act is a 302nd bill passed by the republican house this year alone to include provisions endanger land, water and air by weakening rules and epa and existing protections for coastal areas and public lands. you should know that in a republican senate led by a long-standing friend of coal industry polluters this bill would have a better chance of sailing through. the battle for controlled congress may have as much to do with the country as the presidential lace does. you should know what tim pawlenty is doing as he stepped

down as the co-chair to become ceo of the financial services roundtable, one. most powerful industry groups in washington representing the interests of wall street and fighting tooth, nail and claw against any and all regulatory incursions that might reduce the power or profitability of the financial sector. according to reports, pawlenty's salary could be $2 million a year. he joins a long list of former politicians, democrat and republican, who cashed out after leaving office to peddle their influence on behalf of big money. this is a big part of why washington is broken and why barack obama was 100% right when he said it can't be changed from the inside. >> the activist, aaron schwartz will have to defend himself against 13 felony counts afa additional indictments were unsealed. schwartz, is a friend, is accused of using his access to the m.i.t. lie brar toy download academic articles in order to

make them available to the public for free. the database is run by a nonprofit which charges fees for access in the articles to cover the cost of making them available to the public. you should know that schwartz is being charged under a 26-year-old law intended to stop hackers from damaging computers or stealing private information and that the charges against him include using a fake e-mail address and violate terms of service. the little boxes you check to say you've read them even though you haven't. according to wired magazine, a federal court found the same law could implicate millions of americans as krlts. you should know in the age of corporate wars, that isn't stopping federal prosecutors from pushing ahead with their case against schwartz. if he's convicted hitting him with a $1 million fine and 50 years in prison for making public academic information accessible to the public. i want to find out what my guests want us to know. >> you should know that occupy wall street is in year two and it's still alive.

it's focusing on debt and launched strike debt and part of what strike debt is doing is rolling out people's bailout where we'll be purchasing debt, defaulted debt, medical debt, cents on the dollar and abolishing it. >> this is an amazing thing you guys are doing. i want people to understand. defaulted debt is auctioned offer and you -- because it's being auctioned off, because people are in arrears, you can buy it at auction at cents on the dollar. your plan is to go to the actual auctions and say, oh, this is $100,000 in medical debt, we're going to buy it for $10,000 and turn around and say we forgive the debt. when you owe $100, it's being bought and sold by wall street. that's how we get rid of the shame binding the 99%. alexis. >> go to strike debt.org to find out more about that. you should know that they're meeting the lb dpchlt t.

it's earlier than usual at 6:30 p.m. if you're in new york, 13th street and 7th avenue. you should know about the radical resistance tour for people crisscross the country, talk to activists. go to radical resist tour.tumbler.com. people should know for this week in the 30-year aids epidemic, you can take hiv tests at home. the fda approved the home hiv test. there are some 300,000 americans who don't know if they're hiv positive or negative. they haven't gone for tests. this makes it accessible to everybody and going to be a major tool in reducing the spread of disease. on october 2nd, we'll be getting a ruling on the voter suppression law. i'm starting to hear it's having effects on the elderly who don't have passports lost their birth certificate from 1930.

who need more documentation than they've got. >> we're going to be tracking that. i want to thank our guests today. a min hussein, alexis goldstein. filmmaker david france. how to survive the plague. see it, see it. and the atlantic magazine. how to survive a plague also. for one full year from now, this weekend marks our one-year anniversary. we put up a blooper reel from the early days. it's online right now at up.msnbc.com. i'll provide more fod r this year as well. we'll be back next saturday and sunday. guests including jeffrey toobin and former fdic chief sheila bare. a special -- a student town hall as part of education summit from the new york public library in manhattan. stay with us for more of education nation as brian williams comes to msnbc for a special teacher town hall at noon eastern.

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